直升机为啥会失误……客机尝试过拉升；飞机残骸如纸；花滑视频催泪

[geniushanbiao]

刚搜了一下，黑鹰空重5.7吨，最大起飞重量10吨

这么一大坨扔过去，不管是否有锋利物体，是否有高速旋转物体，再大的客机也吃不消啊

实际上很多人可能对这个不了解，飞机的机体其实脆的很。毕竟想飞上天就要尽量减重，所以机体结构远远赶不上地上跑的结实，基本上很多地方就是一碰就散。

军机会比民机稍微结实些。

[牛河梁]

就是“出了事我负责”的意思。在这次事故里，200呎还是325呎是罗生门。直升机驾驶员和塔台可能都认为直升机飞的是200呎。所以不是违法重点。但有了这一句说已经看到CRJ，保持visual separation（老牛从未request过，都是塔台request老牛保持visual separation）意思就是直升机驾驶员会看着办驾驶员负责，不用塔台管了。

空管最大的法律责任是保持飞机之间的距离（separation）。如果不能visual，那么就像火车的阻塞区间一样，保证每一架飞机都在各自区间不可能相撞。CRJ当时是仪表飞行，按规定由空管负责和其它飞机的separation。但直升机当时是visual飞行。法律上separation不归空管管。也就是说，空管允许直升机过马路，但空管也给了CRJ绿灯，直升机自己看着（从CRJ后面）过。

我没搞清楚那个飞行员请求的visual separation是什么意思？

[lsheng]

高速下面碰撞，固体其实都是液体。坦克装甲相当于匀质钢板800毫米厚度，在穿甲弹面前就是一汪水的存在，一下子就吹开了。人体就更别提了，液态的不能再液态了，像水珠一样一下子就散开了。所以，要安全就尽量慢。

实际上很多人可能对这个不了解，飞机的机体其实脆的很。毕竟想飞上天就要尽量减重，所以机体结构远远赶不上地上跑的结实，基本上很多地方就是一碰就散。

军机会比民机稍微结实些。

[牛河梁]

实际上很多人可能对这个不了解，飞机的机体其实脆的很。毕竟想飞上天就要尽量减重，所以机体结构远远赶不上地上跑的结实，基本上很多地方就是一碰就散。

军机会比民机稍微结实些。

《空战群英》里有这一段。说轰炸机就是锡（其实是铝）皮罐子。浓雾中不能起飞。否则撞到跑道上的牛飞机就散架了。

[牛河梁]

相信是直升机里的人都错看了后面的飞机。
注意说“PAT25 has the traffic in sight, request visual separation”的是男的，不是驾驶直升机的女的。

老领导不会高兴。有这句话。即使当时不是Alpha白男开的直升机，Alpha白男也得负责。也许这是老领导们攻击LGBTQ的原因。牠们认定是“女”飞行员在飞直升机。但虽然切了JiJi声音还是男的。

很奇怪为什么是Alpha白男回答。按说当时在考试，应该全程由考生操作飞机和通讯。如果只是训练，或者考试已经fail了，那么Alpha白男教官的责任就跑不掉了。

[geniushanbiao]

高速下面碰撞，固体其实都是液体。坦克装甲相当于匀质钢板800毫米厚度，在穿甲弹面前就是一汪水的存在，一下子就吹开了。人体就更别提了，液态的不能再液态了，像水珠一样一下子就散开了。所以，要安全就尽量慢。

那也得看是什么穿甲弹。二战那会的穿甲弹穿深都是几十到100多毫米的不可能穿透当代坦克的装甲。飞机主要的问题是皮薄，毕竟要减重所以没办法堆装甲。

[lsheng]

那也得看是什么穿甲弹。二战那会的穿甲弹穿深都是几十到100多毫米的不可能穿透当代坦克的装甲。

那时候的装甲也没这么厚。当时的88炮能对付当时所有坦克装甲。

[geniushanbiao]

那时候的装甲也没这么厚。当时的88炮能对付当时所有坦克装甲。

主要是均质装甲加厚就意味着大量的重量增加，得不偿失。后来复合装甲的出现才使得防护大幅上升。

炮也是一样，那会都是全口径炮弹，增大口径就要增大炮弹重量和占用空间（携带弹药变少），或者增大炮管倍径就要考验炮管强度或者损失寿命。后来出现了翼稳脱壳才使得炮弹的穿深大幅上升的。

[wh]

我前面的视频是当时油管推荐的，有雷达图线，所以直接拿来用了。解释的人不清楚是什么人。

看下面的图，画圈的是正在起飞的飞机，实际上已经在直升机后面了，不应该会看错。直升机的左前方就是CRJ

那是不是搞错高度了？我把两张说高度的截图再贴到下面：这个last transmission是飞机向调度台汇报的高度，还是实测的高度？两个截图里的直升机高度都是200英尺，但实际飞行高度是300多吧。如果是直升机的高度计出错，那就不是飞行员的责任，是飞机的责任……

客机的高度两个截图还不一样，一个说350，一个说400. 说350的还早两秒。350那张是cng的cnn视频里显示的截图；400是你那个ntsb的视频。

[oldogzhao]

主要是均质装甲加厚就意味着大量的重量增加，得不偿失。后来复合装甲的出现才使得防护大幅上升。

炮也是一样，那会都是全口径炮弹，增大口径就要增大炮弹重量和占用空间（携带弹药变少），或者增大炮管倍径就要考验炮管强度或者损失寿命。后来出现了翼稳脱壳才使得炮弹的穿深大幅上升的。

看到有些坦克上的挂甲，有帅又有创意

[wh]

撞击的部位很可能是在大飞机中部而不是机头。另外黑鹰的螺旋桨有4个叶片，还有尾桨，都有杀伤力。

刚搜了一下，黑鹰空重5.7吨，最大起飞重量10吨

这么一大坨扔过去，不管是否有锋利物体，是否有高速旋转物体，再大的客机也吃不消啊

直升机当时的速度多快？客机多快？以前一直觉得直升机飞得慢，可视频里的直升机简直是飞速撞向客机，比客机快多了啊。还是因为拍摄角度的关系？

[wh]

好像那个机场是军民混用的。
确实是很傻逼的事故，看着这些还没有绽放的蓓蕾凋零太让人窒息了！

不知道军机用不用里根机场。那架直升机是从另一个军用机场起飞的，不是客机要降落的里根机场。
嗯，都是最有天赋和潜力的花滑小孩……对着镜头笑得那么灿烂，太让人心碎。

[mingliu]

直升机当时的速度多快？客机多快？以前一直觉得直升机飞得慢，可视频里的直升机简直是飞速撞向客机，比客机快多了啊。还是因为拍摄角度的关系？

肯定都比高速上的汽车快~~~

[wh]

根本就是规程的问题。直升机航线和民航重叠。200英尺和300英尺差多少？飞机的高度都十几，二十英尺。高度计精度是多少？就是靠着小概率才这么多年没出事。以为撞飞机容易么？试着拿棒球打飞行中的棒球试试？没个几百下也打不上一次的。

100英尺是30米半。难道100英尺对飞机来说是属于可允许的误差？应该不至于吧……不过确实管理有点混乱似的，即使两架飞机高度相差30米交错而过，还是感觉近得有点危险。

[lsheng]

一般民航客机使用 气压高度计 作为主要的高度测量工具，其误差主要来源于大气压力变化、温度变化、仪表精度等因素。常见的误差范围如下：

标准大气条件下（ISA，国际标准大气）：
气压高度计的误差通常在 ±50 英尺（±15 米） 以内。
非标准大气条件下（温度、气压变化影响）：
在极端温度条件下，高度计误差可能达到 几百英尺，特别是在寒冷天气时，高度计可能 高估 实际高度。
RVSM 空域（巡航高度 29,000–41,000 英尺）：
允许的高度计系统误差（高度保持精度）通常为 ±200 英尺（±60 米）。
对应的仪表误差要求通常为 ±75 英尺（±23 米） 以内。
无线电高度计（近地面使用）：
误差通常在 ±2 英尺（±0.6 米） 以内，但受地形、机体姿态等影响较大。
误差影响因素：
大气温度偏离 ISA 标准（15°C）：温度越低，高度计误差越大。
静压系统误差：飞机静压孔的安装位置、飞行姿态等会影响测量精度。
仪表滞后：突发气压变化时，高度计可能存在短暂滞后现象。
校准误差：若未正确设置气压基准（QNH/QFE/标准 1013.25 hPa），会导致读数误差。
结论：
在正常情况下，民航客机的气压高度计误差通常不会超过 ±75 英尺，但在极端环境下可能增大。因此，飞行员在关键飞行阶段（如进近、着陆）会结合 无线电高度计 和 地面导航设备（如 ILS）进行校核，以确保飞行安全。

[lsheng]

貌似在地面附近误差是正负50 英尺。100英尺的间隔是显然的不够。

[wh]

提醒了也会出错。你在路上开车，有人问你看到对面的车没有，你说看到了。问题是对面那么多车，问的车和司机自己看到的是一辆车么？

不知道有没有相关规则，空管是否需要告诉飞行员危险飞机的确切位置，又怎么说清楚确切位置。两架飞机都不是直线飞行，空管也很难定位吧。飞行员自己的地图上看不到靠近的飞机吗？直升机是关了ADS-B系统，大概测不到客机的位置。客机飞行员不知道最后是怎么知道直升机近在咫尺的，要是是从自己屏幕上看到的，那要那么近才能看到或测到吗？是因为飞行速度太快，不可能提前测到吗？

顺便贴刚看到的说直升机关闭安全系统（ADS-B）的新闻：
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-hawk ... ator-says/
Black Hawk helicopter in D.C. plane crash had a safety system off, senator says
By Kris Van Cleave
Updated on: February 7, 2025 / 9:04 AM EST / CBS News

The Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Eagle flight over the Potomac River late last month was flying with a safety system turned off, Sen. Ted Cruz told reporters Thursday following a closed door briefing by the Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.
...

Cruz, a Texas Republican, chairs the Senate Commerce Committee, which has oversight of the airline industry.

He said senators were told the helicopter had its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) system turned off. Military aircraft are allowed to fly with that system off.

ADS-B provides detailed granular information to track aircraft locations. The Blackhawk had a transponder, so it would have appeared on radar and was providing flight data, though the ADS-B is much more accurate.

"Unless there was a compelling national security reason for turning it off, that does not seem justified and in this instance, this was a training mission so there was no national security reason for ADS-B to be turned off," Cruz told reporters.

Sen. Tammy Duckworth, a Democrat from Illinois and a former Army helicopter pilot, also noted the questions surrounding the safety system.

"What we don't know ... whether or not the helicopter actually had their ADSP-out turned on. It sounds like it might not have been turned on, but the Army was very clear that the equipment was actually is installed in the aircraft."

Still, NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy told reporters the agency's investigators had not confirmed whether the chopper was even equipped with the technology.

"We don't know that at this time," Homendy said before describing the helicopter crew's mission. "This was a combined night vision goggle annual check ride."

ADS-B data is one of the data streams fed to air traffic controllers along with Center Radar and Approach Radar. It's fused together into a single display on controllers' screens.

Even without the ADS-B data, it has been revealed, the controller involved had a track on the helicopter that showed it at an altitude of 300 feet. The controller was in touch with the Black Hawk, which indicated it could see the plane and would maintain separation.

Democratic Sen. Maria Cantwell of Washington questioned last week why the FAA has allowed military flights with the ADS-B system turned off.

The NTSB will seek to determine if the system was present and turned on — and if not, why not — and whether its use might have helped avoid the accident, though it appears there was enough data that the danger of the situation should have been clear, regardless.

[wh]

高速下面碰撞，固体其实都是液体。坦克装甲相当于匀质钢板800毫米厚度，在穿甲弹面前就是一汪水的存在，一下子就吹开了。人体就更别提了，液态的不能再液态了，像水珠一样一下子就散开了。所以，要安全就尽量慢。

那找到的遗体是不是都四分五裂了……

[lsheng]

不太可能。人类语言描述三维坐标再加速度向量在几秒钟时间内困难太大。得自动的才行。即使描述明白，理解也需要时间。

不知道有没有相关规则，空管是否需要告诉飞行员危险飞机的确切位置，又怎么说清楚确切位置。两架飞机都不是直线飞行，空管也很难定位吧。飞行员自己的地图上看不到靠近的飞机吗？直升机是关了ADS-B系统，大概测不到客机的位置。客机飞行员不知道最后是怎么知道直升机近在咫尺的，要是是从自己屏幕上看到的，那要那么近才能看到或测到吗？是因为飞行速度太快，不可能提前测到吗？

顺便贴刚看到的说直升机关闭安全系统（ADS-B）的新闻：
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-hawk ... ator-says/
Black Hawk helicopter in D.C. plane crash had a safety system off, senator says
By Kris Van Cleave
Updated on: February 7, 2025 / 9:04 AM EST / CBS News

The Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Eagle flight over the Potomac River late last month was flying with a safety system turned off, Sen. Ted Cruz told reporters Thursday following a closed door briefing by the Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.
...

Cruz, a Texas Republican, chairs the Senate Commerce Committee, which has oversight of the airline industry.

He said senators were told the helicopter had its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) system turned off. Military aircraft are allowed to fly with that system off.

ADS-B provides detailed granular information to track aircraft locations. The Blackhawk had a transponder, so it would have appeared on radar and was providing flight data, though the ADS-B is much more accurate.

"Unless there was a compelling national security reason for turning it off, that does not seem justified and in this instance, this was a training mission so there was no national security reason for ADS-B to be turned off," Cruz told reporters.

Sen. Tammy Duckworth, a Democrat from Illinois and a former Army helicopter pilot, also noted the questions surrounding the safety system.

"What we don't know ... whether or not the helicopter actually had their ADSP-out turned on. It sounds like it might not have been turned on, but the Army was very clear that the equipment was actually is installed in the aircraft."

Still, NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy told reporters the agency's investigators had not confirmed whether the chopper was even equipped with the technology.

"We don't know that at this time," Homendy said before describing the helicopter crew's mission. "This was a combined night vision goggle annual check ride."

ADS-B data is one of the data streams fed to air traffic controllers along with Center Radar and Approach Radar. It's fused together into a single display on controllers' screens.

Even without the ADS-B data, it has been revealed, the controller involved had a track on the helicopter that showed it at an altitude of 300 feet. The controller was in touch with the Black Hawk, which indicated it could see the plane and would maintain separation.

Democratic Sen. Maria Cantwell of Washington questioned last week why the FAA has allowed military flights with the ADS-B system turned off.

The NTSB will seek to determine if the system was present and turned on — and if not, why not — and whether its use might have helped avoid the accident, though it appears there was enough data that the danger of the situation should have been clear, regardless.

[lsheng]

常态。要么怎么坠机有时要上千人去收拾。

那找到的遗体是不是都四分五裂了……