那时候地球的平均温度大约比清朝时期的平均高0.3+/-0.1摄氏度
青藏高原作为“世界第三极”，温度变化会比全球的平均温度变化更剧烈。那时可能会比清朝时期平均高几度。生态会好很多，吐蕃（包括在比较靠近其政治中心的农业区的）农牧业都会更好。那时新疆地区水源比现在多很多。罗布泊地区到清朝时期还有少部分渔民。
吐蕃的高峰人口大约600万上下。绝大多数是游牧人口。在征战年代，在人均上，在广阔的地区相对定居人群（比如在和田地区和其它主要为农业地区）有很大的优势。
下面将引进一个不可错过的视频系列
从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
版主： Caravel， TheMatrix， molen
#9 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
前面有个视频里提到吐蕃立了个傀儡皇帝（只有10几天，就是个声称）。那是金城公主的兄弟。
文成公主在西藏地位很高，被认为是观音菩萨的一个化身。那个尼泊尔公主也是一个化身。
在金城公主期间，吐蕃和唐两大帝国争端不断，但金城公主有时也会做到某种程度的调和。
文成公主在西藏地位很高，被认为是观音菩萨的一个化身。那个尼泊尔公主也是一个化身。
在金城公主期间，吐蕃和唐两大帝国争端不断，但金城公主有时也会做到某种程度的调和。
#13 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
疑问是清朝时期罗布泊如果有鱼，那么鱼从哪儿来的？整个盆地都是内流区域，远离任何外流大江大河。即使有鱼，也必是远古遗留物种。meiyoumajia 写了： 2024年 1月 29日 14:44 那时候地球的平均温度大约比清朝时期的平均高0.3+/-0.1摄氏度
青藏高原作为“世界第三极”，温度变化会比全球的平均温度变化更剧烈。那时可能会比清朝时期平均高几度。生态会好很多，吐蕃（包括在比较靠近其政治中心的农业区的）农牧业都会更好。那时新疆地区水源比现在多很多。罗布泊地区到清朝时期还有少部分渔民。
吐蕃的高峰人口大约600万上下。绝大多数是游牧人口。在征战年代，在人均上，在广阔的地区相对定居人群（比如在和田地区和其它主要为农业地区）有很大的优势。
下面将引进一个不可错过的视频系列
对比美国大盐湖，就没有鱼，只有一种虾米。
没有光子；也没有量子能级，量子跃迁，量子叠加，量子塌缩和量子纠缠。
#14 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
过去是大湖区。留有鱼种不奇怪。在非洲和欧亚大陆都有这种含鱼类的水体。里面甚至会有特别的鱼种。verdelite 写了： 2024年 1月 29日 15:06 疑问是清朝时期罗布泊如果有鱼，那么鱼从哪儿来的？整个盆地都是内流区域，远离任何外流大江大河。即使有鱼，也必是远古遗留物种。
对比美国大盐湖，就没有鱼，只有一种虾米。
最近几年里有个电视节目
里面有个104岁老人说他们的祖先在100年前还是渔民，讲着自己的语言。后来水体消失而不得不迁徙到其它地区的村庄边缘。
我看还能不能找到那个视频。
#16 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
大约从41:20开始meiyoumajia 写了： 2024年 1月 29日 15:15 过去是大湖区。留有鱼种不奇怪。在非洲和欧亚大陆都有这种含鱼类的水体。里面甚至会有特别的鱼种。
最近几年里有个电视节目
里面有个104岁老人说他们的祖先在100年前还是渔民，讲着自己的语言。后来水体消失而不得不迁徙到其它地区的村庄边缘。
我看还能不能找到那个视频。
#18 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
后来在西藏，金城公主被（有些人）传是1个”菩萨”的母亲。文成无后。
中央台的那个视频里有些重要细节可能已经过时/比较不严格。部分内容其实是至少10年前CCTV节目片段。关于小河墓地人群的来源至今可能都有不小的基因分子考古层次的学术争议。
比如
这个认为塔里木盆地3500年前或更早的人群与欧洲和西边其它地方4000年内古代人群在遗传层次上年代相距太远，是个很孤立发展的人群。又说小麦可能在5500左右就通过其它人群（比如与他们有明显分子遗传意义上的年代距离的古准格尔盆地人群）传到了那里。这与上面的CCTV节目里的（过去的主要）说法很不同。
（节目里的新疆考古所所长伊第利斯也是作者之一，应该是协助性。max planck 人类历史科学研究所也有主要参与者。）
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04052-7
下面有个古文化区图，可做参考：
https://link.springer.com/article/10.11 ... 015-0237-5
中央台的那个视频里有些重要细节可能已经过时/比较不严格。部分内容其实是至少10年前CCTV节目片段。关于小河墓地人群的来源至今可能都有不小的基因分子考古层次的学术争议。
比如
这个认为塔里木盆地3500年前或更早的人群与欧洲和西边其它地方4000年内古代人群在遗传层次上年代相距太远，是个很孤立发展的人群。又说小麦可能在5500左右就通过其它人群（比如与他们有明显分子遗传意义上的年代距离的古准格尔盆地人群）传到了那里。这与上面的CCTV节目里的（过去的主要）说法很不同。
（节目里的新疆考古所所长伊第利斯也是作者之一，应该是协助性。max planck 人类历史科学研究所也有主要参与者。）
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04052-7
下面有个古文化区图，可做参考：
https://link.springer.com/article/10.11 ... 015-0237-5
#19 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
对上面那篇文章的（同一天）快报
https://www.science.org/content/article ... -ancestors
Western China’s mysterious mummies were local descendants of ice age ancestors
Find suggests Tarim Basin mummies were not strangers from a strange land
The Tarim Basin mummies have been a mystery ever since European explorers discovered them in northwestern China in the early 20th century. They were tall, wore wool felt hats and leather booties, and some had fair hair—all suggesting they were strangers from a strange land.
But a new study of the mummies’ DNA finds they were locals with deep roots in the region. Indeed, they appear to be relics of an ancient population that disappeared in Eurasia after the last ice age—one that was ancestral to Indigenous peoples living in Siberia and the Americas today.
It’s “fantastic” to learn that these mummies were local Asians, says Alison Betts, an archaeologist of Scottish descent at the University of Sydney who was not involved with the work. “Honest to God, one looks like my granny, with her very elegant bone structure … and her legs in woolen leggings, with blue and orange wrapping and boots like Uggs.”
Anthropologists have floated many theories about the Tarim Basin mummies. One is that they were descendants of the Yamnaya and Afanasievo nomadic herders from the steppes of the Black Sea region of Russia, because of their unusual height, woven woolen clothing, and cattle-centric culture. (The mummies were found in wooden boats covered with cow hides and adorned with horned cow skulls.) Another hypothesis is that they descend from farmers who migrated from desert oases of Bactria, or what is now modern Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan, based on similarities of agricultural and irrigation systems. Both ideas suggest these people brought Tocharian, an extinct branch of Indo-European languages, to the region.
To test these hypotheses, molecular anthropologist Yinqiu Cui of Jilin University organized an international team to analyze the DNA across the genomes of 13 of the oldest mummies found at sites such as Xiaohe and Gumugou in the Tarim Basin, dating from 4100 to 3700 years ago. Population geneticist Choongwon Jeong of Seoul National University compared their DNA with that of five even earlier individuals dating to 5000 to 4800 years ago in the neighboring Dzungarian Basin, and with other ancient and living Eurasians, in the first genomic study of prehistoric populations in the region.
Much to the scientists’ surprise, the mummies were most closely related to a previously identified genetic group called the Ancient North Eurasians, a once widespread population of hunter-gatherers that had greatly declined by the end of the last ice age. Researchers have wondered what happened to these people, but it is “totally unexpected” to find them in the Tarim Basin in the early Bronze Age, Jeong says. Today, this population survives only fractionally in the genomes of living people, with Indigenous populations in Siberia and the Americas having the highest proportions.
Mummies were found buried in wooden boats with oars, which were covered with cowhides at this ancient cemetery at Xiaohe in the Tamir Basin. WENYING LI/XINJIANG INSTITUTE OF CULTURAL RELICS AND ARCHAEOLOGY
The mummies were remarkably similar genetically, the team reports today in Nature. The DNA from individuals 400 kilometers apart on opposite ends of the Tarim Basin was as similar as that from siblings. Even though the mummies were locals who didn’t intermarry with the migrant herders in nearby mountain valleys, they weren’t culturally isolated. By 4000 years ago, they had already adopted new ideas and culture: They wore woven woolen clothing, built irrigation systems, grew nonnative wheat and millet, and herded sheep and goats, as well as milking cattle to make cheese.
“The Bronze Age people of the Tarim Basin were genetically isolated but culturally incredibly cosmopolitan,” says study co-author Christina Warinner, a molecular archeologist at Harvard University and the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
“It’s superexciting” to see evidence that new ideas, technology, and culture spread between different cultures before their genes or languages spread, says Michael Frachetti, an archaeologist at Washington University in St. Louis who was not part of the study. “It speaks to the vast trade networks that spread even to these people, isolated in the desert.”
https://www.science.org/content/article ... -ancestors
Western China’s mysterious mummies were local descendants of ice age ancestors
Find suggests Tarim Basin mummies were not strangers from a strange land
The Tarim Basin mummies have been a mystery ever since European explorers discovered them in northwestern China in the early 20th century. They were tall, wore wool felt hats and leather booties, and some had fair hair—all suggesting they were strangers from a strange land.
But a new study of the mummies’ DNA finds they were locals with deep roots in the region. Indeed, they appear to be relics of an ancient population that disappeared in Eurasia after the last ice age—one that was ancestral to Indigenous peoples living in Siberia and the Americas today.
It’s “fantastic” to learn that these mummies were local Asians, says Alison Betts, an archaeologist of Scottish descent at the University of Sydney who was not involved with the work. “Honest to God, one looks like my granny, with her very elegant bone structure … and her legs in woolen leggings, with blue and orange wrapping and boots like Uggs.”
Anthropologists have floated many theories about the Tarim Basin mummies. One is that they were descendants of the Yamnaya and Afanasievo nomadic herders from the steppes of the Black Sea region of Russia, because of their unusual height, woven woolen clothing, and cattle-centric culture. (The mummies were found in wooden boats covered with cow hides and adorned with horned cow skulls.) Another hypothesis is that they descend from farmers who migrated from desert oases of Bactria, or what is now modern Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan, based on similarities of agricultural and irrigation systems. Both ideas suggest these people brought Tocharian, an extinct branch of Indo-European languages, to the region.
To test these hypotheses, molecular anthropologist Yinqiu Cui of Jilin University organized an international team to analyze the DNA across the genomes of 13 of the oldest mummies found at sites such as Xiaohe and Gumugou in the Tarim Basin, dating from 4100 to 3700 years ago. Population geneticist Choongwon Jeong of Seoul National University compared their DNA with that of five even earlier individuals dating to 5000 to 4800 years ago in the neighboring Dzungarian Basin, and with other ancient and living Eurasians, in the first genomic study of prehistoric populations in the region.
Much to the scientists’ surprise, the mummies were most closely related to a previously identified genetic group called the Ancient North Eurasians, a once widespread population of hunter-gatherers that had greatly declined by the end of the last ice age. Researchers have wondered what happened to these people, but it is “totally unexpected” to find them in the Tarim Basin in the early Bronze Age, Jeong says. Today, this population survives only fractionally in the genomes of living people, with Indigenous populations in Siberia and the Americas having the highest proportions.
Mummies were found buried in wooden boats with oars, which were covered with cowhides at this ancient cemetery at Xiaohe in the Tamir Basin. WENYING LI/XINJIANG INSTITUTE OF CULTURAL RELICS AND ARCHAEOLOGY
The mummies were remarkably similar genetically, the team reports today in Nature. The DNA from individuals 400 kilometers apart on opposite ends of the Tarim Basin was as similar as that from siblings. Even though the mummies were locals who didn’t intermarry with the migrant herders in nearby mountain valleys, they weren’t culturally isolated. By 4000 years ago, they had already adopted new ideas and culture: They wore woven woolen clothing, built irrigation systems, grew nonnative wheat and millet, and herded sheep and goats, as well as milking cattle to make cheese.
“The Bronze Age people of the Tarim Basin were genetically isolated but culturally incredibly cosmopolitan,” says study co-author Christina Warinner, a molecular archeologist at Harvard University and the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
“It’s superexciting” to see evidence that new ideas, technology, and culture spread between different cultures before their genes or languages spread, says Michael Frachetti, an archaeologist at Washington University in St. Louis who was not part of the study. “It speaks to the vast trade networks that spread even to these people, isolated in the desert.”
#20 Re: 从略先吐蕃大帝国到崩裂后的青藏高原及周边相关历史
在1万2千年前或更早的1万年里，Q迁徙到了北美，但他们的1远古兄弟R1a却没有做到。部分幸存者从北方经过若干千年最后在当时生活条件还不错/更好的的塔里木盆地生活下去。
要是有人记录下了他们在100多年前的语言就好了。
要是有人记录下了他们在100多年前的语言就好了。