才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
版主： kazaawang， wh
#267 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
我没有去读，只是找了一些信息。wh. 写了： 2024年 2月 27日 09:00 前面那篇文章我好像看过英语，这篇中文像是翻译的，翻译腔很重，有些句子不知所云。很理解她不想让她妈看她的文章，我要是这么写我妈，我也绝不想让她看到……那句brutal attention确实很符合她那篇gardening的文章：
“小说家加斯·格林威尔如是评价李翊云的写作，“她对人物的关注好似我们想象中上帝对我们的关注：一种泯灭自我、不带丝毫感伤的爱，一种残暴的关注（brutal attention）。””
她的文章思辨性很强，像是不断在和自己争论，用沈从文的话来说是聪明脑壳的打架。很静态，有点枯燥和走不出来的感觉。不过也是她的特色。
中文写的东西确实有很多翻译的不好，经常也不给处处。
英语原文的链接？
曾经的 newkids_on_the_block
#268 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
我给起的，许多玫瑰尤其是树形状的都是嫁接在一种名为休伊博士的玫瑰上的，休伊博士这个品种特别适合接盘，虽然自己也开花但花色深红尺寸小，如果你注意到某处玫瑰花丛里多出这样的花多半是他从根部自己冒出的芽开了花，需要及时剪掉否则他上面的花就长不好。
+2.00 积分 [版主 wh 发放的奖励]
左蜱加油!
#269 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
英文找不到了。我只记得看到过别人说她说自己的儿子自杀时直接用died，不用pass away等委婉语。这句话给我印象挺深。
刚刚找英文时看到另一篇采访，里面说起她为什么不愿意用中文写作。不过她觉得她写的是人性，不是在说中国不好。
https://www.kyotojournal.org/reviews/an ... -yiyun-li/
Samuel Becket wrote his plays in French because English was so familiar it had a deadening effect. Is that why you don’t write in Chinese?
I think so. Chinese is rather an inhibitory language for me. I just cannot express myself freely. I self-censor so much that the language is not useful for storytelling.
I don’t have a Chinese vocabulary for most emotions, I would say, because we grew up in this environment where emotions were not encouraged. I had this really bad little girl’s habit of writing around things when I was younger and kept a journal.
My parents did not encourage us to write or to express ourselves in words, and that put some sort of a forbidden thing on writing. They were afraid that we would get into trouble, because there were so many stories about people getting into trouble for what they wrote in their journals and diaries. So they were very adamant. They were cautious people.
...
Speaking of freedom and prisons, what do you think about this year’s Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Liu Xiaobao?
I read some of his work when I was a teenager. He was a leading intellectual at the time, and very influential. I know a little bit about his political work. Actually I just got a hate mail from a fellow Chinese in America. Without signing his name, he wrote in Chinese: I’m so ashamed of you and Liu Xiaobo. You are just like him [laughs]. I think that there’s a feeling that you are recognizing the west because you are saying something bad about China.
Are you saying something bad about China?
I don’t think so. I think I’m just writing about human nature and it just so happens that my characters are Chinese.
#272 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
应该是没有以写中国坏话为目的，但因为描写的人性的坏，而角色是中国人，也从客观上起到了说中国坏话的作用。wh. 写了： 2024年 2月 27日 11:22 英文找不到了。我只记得看到过别人说她说自己的儿子自杀时直接用died，不用pass away等委婉语。这句话给我印象挺深。
刚刚找英文时看到另一篇采访，里面说起她为什么不愿意用中文写作。不过她觉得她写的是人性，不是在说中国不好。
https://www.kyotojournal.org/reviews/an ... -yiyun-li/
Samuel Becket wrote his plays in French because English was so familiar it had a deadening effect. Is that why you don’t write in Chinese?
I think so. Chinese is rather an inhibitory language for me. I just cannot express myself freely. I self-censor so much that the language is not useful for storytelling.
I don’t have a Chinese vocabulary for most emotions, I would say, because we grew up in this environment where emotions were not encouraged. I had this really bad little girl’s habit of writing around things when I was younger and kept a journal.
My parents did not encourage us to write or to express ourselves in words, and that put some sort of a forbidden thing on writing. They were afraid that we would get into trouble, because there were so many stories about people getting into trouble for what they wrote in their journals and diaries. So they were very adamant. They were cautious people.
...
Speaking of freedom and prisons, what do you think about this year’s Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Liu Xiaobao?
I read some of his work when I was a teenager. He was a leading intellectual at the time, and very influential. I know a little bit about his political work. Actually I just got a hate mail from a fellow Chinese in America. Without signing his name, he wrote in Chinese: I’m so ashamed of you and Liu Xiaobo. You are just like him [laughs]. I think that there’s a feeling that you are recognizing the west because you are saying something bad about China.
Are you saying something bad about China?
I don’t think so. I think I’m just writing about human nature and it just so happens that my characters are Chinese.
这个和 Amy Tan 也是差不多的吧，因为描写的角色是中国人，而起到了说 chinese america 的坏话的作用。
这个另一个对她的采访
https://asia.nikkei.com/NAR/Articles/Ch ... -countries
Q: Have any of your books been translated and published in mainland China?
A: No, I refused. I did not want my books to be translated into Chinese. My books are not very complimentary to China. They would say, "Why do you write about [the] darkness of China?" People always feel awkward when we air dirty laundry. If you look at Chinese writers writing for Chinese readers, they write about China very honestly, but it's OK because their readers are Chinese. I think my problem is my readers are Western readers. That bothers people. The dark things about China, you don't worry, because if I write about America it's not going to be a bright country, either. There is going to be a dark place, too. In my writing I ask questions I don't have answers for.
Q: I take it you don't like writing in Chinese.
A: Yeah. I don't write in Chinese. I have never written in Chinese. It annoys people that I [do] not write [in] Chinese. [Even] emails I write in English to my Chinese friends. To my mother, I just call her.
I was a good writer, but I did not like writing in Chinese. I was looking at a Chinese writer's novel, and there [was] something about that novel [which] really bothered me. I thought, "What's wrong with this novel? It has good characters, a good story." What bothered me is this novel uses the language that is completely the language [of] the past 50 years. So communism has changed the Chinese language in such a way that in everyday life people talk without realizing that this language [has not been] there forever. It [has] only existed in the past 50 years. Once the language is changed, thinking patterns are changed. ...
I think partly I don't like to use Chinese because ... my thinking pattern is going to be affected by that. I want to maintain the new quality of my mind.
Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of writing in a language that is not your mother tongue?
A: I think there are more advantages than disadvantages, but the disadvantage is, [if] you don't grow up with the language, you don't have the intimacy. You miss little things. For instance, my children make up little poems so easily, rhyming things, they can rhyme [right off the] top of their head; they can rhyme forever. I would say that I cannot rhyme because I don't have the rhyming thing in my head. ...
The advantages -- you use the language as a grown-up. You bypass the children's stage and you tend to think more slowly because you have to make sure your thinking is right, so you think slowly and you write slowly. You make sure every word is right, and that helps.
Q: How do you see yourself, Chinese or American?
A: I never want to define myself that way. Who you are is the moment you get up in the morning, you brush your teeth, you wash your face, you look at yourself in the mirror: That person you see is who you are, and I don't see myself early in the morning and say, "Hey, you are American." Or, "You are Chinese." Or, "You are a woman." Or, "You are a mother." I don't think that way, I look at myself and say, "Oh this is you." And that's all I need to define myself.
I compare China now to America in the earliest 20th century. So, if you look at America you know [that in] the late 19th century or early 20th century, the Gilded Age, people were so rich, people were so corrupted. Poor people were very poor, rich people very rich; it was exactly like China. There was not a good legal system. ... People manipulated the legal system. ... If you look at the moral standard at that time it was different from now. So, I think it took America many years to outgrow that age, but China, at this moment, is still in that. ...
Q: How do you look at China and America?
A: I think I enjoy looking at both countries, [from] the outside and also from inside. I know China very well, even if I don't live there. I read the news every day. I can both be an insider and an outsider to both countries.
Q: What do you think of America and China, respectively?
A: Both countries have [a] fatal weakness that they have to deal with. I think the problem with China is there is not a legal system. It's the single-party, the one-party problem. Once you have two parties, the legal system will be fixed. The problem with America is the education; the whole education system in America is so bad. I think the kids are not meeting the standard. I think expectations of the kids are low in general. ... Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.
Interviewed by Nikkei deputy editor Arisa Yoshida
+2.00 积分 [版主 wh 发放的奖励]
曾经的 newkids_on_the_block
#273 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
最后一句很棒哦：“Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.”newkids_on_the_block 写了： 2024年 2月 28日 15:11 应该是没有以写中国坏话为目的，但因为描写的人性的坏，而角色是中国人，也从客观上起到了说中国坏话的作用。
这个和 Amy Tan 也是差不多的吧，因为描写的角色是中国人，而起到了说 chinese america 的坏话的作用。
这个另一个对她的采访
https://asia.nikkei.com/NAR/Articles/Ch ... -countries
Q: Have any of your books been translated and published in mainland China?
A: No, I refused. I did not want my books to be translated into Chinese. My books are not very complimentary to China. They would say, "Why do you write about [the] darkness of China?" People always feel awkward when we air dirty laundry. If you look at Chinese writers writing for Chinese readers, they write about China very honestly, but it's OK because their readers are Chinese. I think my problem is my readers are Western readers. That bothers people. The dark things about China, you don't worry, because if I write about America it's not going to be a bright country, either. There is going to be a dark place, too. In my writing I ask questions I don't have answers for.
Q: I take it you don't like writing in Chinese.
A: Yeah. I don't write in Chinese. I have never written in Chinese. It annoys people that I [do] not write [in] Chinese. [Even] emails I write in English to my Chinese friends. To my mother, I just call her.
I was a good writer, but I did not like writing in Chinese. I was looking at a Chinese writer's novel, and there [was] something about that novel [which] really bothered me. I thought, "What's wrong with this novel? It has good characters, a good story." What bothered me is this novel uses the language that is completely the language [of] the past 50 years. So communism has changed the Chinese language in such a way that in everyday life people talk without realizing that this language [has not been] there forever. It [has] only existed in the past 50 years. Once the language is changed, thinking patterns are changed. ...
I think partly I don't like to use Chinese because ... my thinking pattern is going to be affected by that. I want to maintain the new quality of my mind.
Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of writing in a language that is not your mother tongue?
A: I think there are more advantages than disadvantages, but the disadvantage is, [if] you don't grow up with the language, you don't have the intimacy. You miss little things. For instance, my children make up little poems so easily, rhyming things, they can rhyme [right off the] top of their head; they can rhyme forever. I would say that I cannot rhyme because I don't have the rhyming thing in my head. ...
The advantages -- you use the language as a grown-up. You bypass the children's stage and you tend to think more slowly because you have to make sure your thinking is right, so you think slowly and you write slowly. You make sure every word is right, and that helps.
Q: How do you see yourself, Chinese or American?
A: I never want to define myself that way. Who you are is the moment you get up in the morning, you brush your teeth, you wash your face, you look at yourself in the mirror: That person you see is who you are, and I don't see myself early in the morning and say, "Hey, you are American." Or, "You are Chinese." Or, "You are a woman." Or, "You are a mother." I don't think that way, I look at myself and say, "Oh this is you." And that's all I need to define myself.
I compare China now to America in the earliest 20th century. So, if you look at America you know [that in] the late 19th century or early 20th century, the Gilded Age, people were so rich, people were so corrupted. Poor people were very poor, rich people very rich; it was exactly like China. There was not a good legal system. ... People manipulated the legal system. ... If you look at the moral standard at that time it was different from now. So, I think it took America many years to outgrow that age, but China, at this moment, is still in that. ...
Q: How do you look at China and America?
A: I think I enjoy looking at both countries, [from] the outside and also from inside. I know China very well, even if I don't live there. I read the news every day. I can both be an insider and an outsider to both countries.
Q: What do you think of America and China, respectively?
A: Both countries have [a] fatal weakness that they have to deal with. I think the problem with China is there is not a legal system. It's the single-party, the one-party problem. Once you have two parties, the legal system will be fixed. The problem with America is the education; the whole education system in America is so bad. I think the kids are not meeting the standard. I think expectations of the kids are low in general. ... Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.
Interviewed by Nikkei deputy editor Arisa Yoshida
不过我还是觉得教育是有启蒙作用的，启蒙+人尽其才。
她在这个采访里是承认说中国不好的，也批评了中国政府对语言的破坏。这和前一个采访不同，前一个采访是否认说中国不好。虽然采访时的即兴发言不会太严谨，有时前后文不一样，说的话也会有矛盾；可实在没必要否认说中国不好，至少她的前期作品说过太多中国（政府）的不是。
#274 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
Put them where they are 什么意思？wh. 写了： 2024年 2月 29日 03:39 最后一句很棒哦：“Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.”
不过我还是觉得教育是有启蒙作用的，启蒙+人尽其才。
她在这个采访里是承认说中国不好的，也批评了中国政府对语言的破坏。这和前一个采访不同，前一个采访是否认说中国不好。虽然采访时的即兴发言不会太严谨，有时前后文不一样，说的话也会有矛盾；可实在没必要否认说中国不好，至少她的前期作品说过太多中国（政府）的不是。
#276 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
看到了她说的chinese as an inhibitory language, 联想到我这几年的感觉正好相反。可能是被单位各种左派大字报影响了，英文的书越来越看不下去，平时工作写英文邮件也是越来越短，不像十几年前刚开始工作的时候，经常长篇大论。现在反而是经常看中文的东西，发现了很多语言上的革新。So for me English is becoming an inhibitory language.
和Kyoto Journal上面的访谈连起来看，感觉她写的东西不是单纯的自恨老将文学，而的确是被中文表达所压抑。从李的角度看来，这种压抑，全是CCP的错，但是我觉得可以用一个深层的理论来解释，我称之为language as a power projection. 这里面的power可以是党八股里面的“粉碎”，“彻底清除”，“坚决贯彻”这些暴力语言，也可以是无形的冷暴力，比如被认为是种族歧视的常用语 "go back to china"， 预设了对话双方的不对等的地位。我在这里出生的，就是比外来的人有资格评论谁能呆在这里。非母语的人和母语的人讲话， 词不达意，也可以理解为power imbalance. 文化批评理论圈子里Edward Said的orientalism, 和Frantz Fanon的white gaze, 可以归结为一种西方居高临下的俯视感。一方是博物馆里的展品，另一方是展览台外面的观众。国内经常提的西方话语支配权，也是这种power的一种表现。
文学归根到底是作者和读者的交流，这种交流的前提，是双方地位得大致对等。所以任何的power projection都只能导致一边是训话的一方，另一半是被教训的一方的结果。
比如版主很欣赏的这句话““Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.” 你从文学的角度，感觉看了很舒服，因为enlighten预设了作为宾语的必然是蒙昧的那一方。而put them where they are这种感觉少一点。其实这句话我在教育界已经听了很多年了，更加政治正确的说法是"meet the students wherever they are, and help them get to where they need to go". 但是作为教育哲学，特别是理科教育，带来的是整个公立教育体制崩塌，导致现在美国制造业回归完全是一句空话。（这个我以后另外开贴）
所以我能理解李所说的，用英文比中文能更好的表达自己。但是我不同意她所说的chinese is changed for forever这种说法。语言本身是不断进化的活的东西，communism does not last forever. 古汉语里面，到处也都是像“自古圣人贤士..." 这一类固化的语言暴力。对于不识字的中国人（过去的绝大多数），读书识字本身就是power imbalance的源头。
我觉得我这个理论可以解释美国这几年的包括wokeness, 和white backlash在内的很多现象，以及大家作为父母都比较关心的ABC孩子的心理健康的问题。我个人的直觉，无力感powerlessness和抑郁有很大的关系。种田这些体力活为什么可以防止抑郁，不光是阳光，空气这些因素，你把东西种活了，有成就感，giving you a sense of power。像近十几年Amy Tan，Maxine Kingston这些作家的作品，被收入美国中学生必读书的canon, 对于ABC孩子到底有什么样的影响，欢迎大家进一步深入讨论。
和Kyoto Journal上面的访谈连起来看，感觉她写的东西不是单纯的自恨老将文学，而的确是被中文表达所压抑。从李的角度看来，这种压抑，全是CCP的错，但是我觉得可以用一个深层的理论来解释，我称之为language as a power projection. 这里面的power可以是党八股里面的“粉碎”，“彻底清除”，“坚决贯彻”这些暴力语言，也可以是无形的冷暴力，比如被认为是种族歧视的常用语 "go back to china"， 预设了对话双方的不对等的地位。我在这里出生的，就是比外来的人有资格评论谁能呆在这里。非母语的人和母语的人讲话， 词不达意，也可以理解为power imbalance. 文化批评理论圈子里Edward Said的orientalism, 和Frantz Fanon的white gaze, 可以归结为一种西方居高临下的俯视感。一方是博物馆里的展品，另一方是展览台外面的观众。国内经常提的西方话语支配权，也是这种power的一种表现。
文学归根到底是作者和读者的交流，这种交流的前提，是双方地位得大致对等。所以任何的power projection都只能导致一边是训话的一方，另一半是被教训的一方的结果。
比如版主很欣赏的这句话““Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.” 你从文学的角度，感觉看了很舒服，因为enlighten预设了作为宾语的必然是蒙昧的那一方。而put them where they are这种感觉少一点。其实这句话我在教育界已经听了很多年了，更加政治正确的说法是"meet the students wherever they are, and help them get to where they need to go". 但是作为教育哲学，特别是理科教育，带来的是整个公立教育体制崩塌，导致现在美国制造业回归完全是一句空话。（这个我以后另外开贴）
所以我能理解李所说的，用英文比中文能更好的表达自己。但是我不同意她所说的chinese is changed for forever这种说法。语言本身是不断进化的活的东西，communism does not last forever. 古汉语里面，到处也都是像“自古圣人贤士..." 这一类固化的语言暴力。对于不识字的中国人（过去的绝大多数），读书识字本身就是power imbalance的源头。
我觉得我这个理论可以解释美国这几年的包括wokeness, 和white backlash在内的很多现象，以及大家作为父母都比较关心的ABC孩子的心理健康的问题。我个人的直觉，无力感powerlessness和抑郁有很大的关系。种田这些体力活为什么可以防止抑郁，不光是阳光，空气这些因素，你把东西种活了，有成就感，giving you a sense of power。像近十几年Amy Tan，Maxine Kingston这些作家的作品，被收入美国中学生必读书的canon, 对于ABC孩子到底有什么样的影响，欢迎大家进一步深入讨论。
newkids_on_the_block 写了： 2024年 2月 28日 15:11 应该是没有以写中国坏话为目的，但因为描写的人性的坏，而角色是中国人，也从客观上起到了说中国坏话的作用。
这个和 Amy Tan 也是差不多的吧，因为描写的角色是中国人，而起到了说 chinese america 的坏话的作用。
这个另一个对她的采访
https://asia.nikkei.com/NAR/Articles/Ch ... -countries
Q: Have any of your books been translated and published in mainland China?
A: No, I refused. I did not want my books to be translated into Chinese. My books are not very complimentary to China. They would say, "Why do you write about [the] darkness of China?" People always feel awkward when we air dirty laundry. If you look at Chinese writers writing for Chinese readers, they write about China very honestly, but it's OK because their readers are Chinese. I think my problem is my readers are Western readers. That bothers people. The dark things about China, you don't worry, because if I write about America it's not going to be a bright country, either. There is going to be a dark place, too. In my writing I ask questions I don't have answers for.
Q: I take it you don't like writing in Chinese.
A: Yeah. I don't write in Chinese. I have never written in Chinese. It annoys people that I [do] not write [in] Chinese. [Even] emails I write in English to my Chinese friends. To my mother, I just call her.
I was a good writer, but I did not like writing in Chinese. I was looking at a Chinese writer's novel, and there [was] something about that novel [which] really bothered me. I thought, "What's wrong with this novel? It has good characters, a good story." What bothered me is this novel uses the language that is completely the language [of] the past 50 years. So communism has changed the Chinese language in such a way that in everyday life people talk without realizing that this language [has not been] there forever. It [has] only existed in the past 50 years. Once the language is changed, thinking patterns are changed. ...
I think partly I don't like to use Chinese because ... my thinking pattern is going to be affected by that. I want to maintain the new quality of my mind.
Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of writing in a language that is not your mother tongue?
A: I think there are more advantages than disadvantages, but the disadvantage is, [if] you don't grow up with the language, you don't have the intimacy. You miss little things. For instance, my children make up little poems so easily, rhyming things, they can rhyme [right off the] top of their head; they can rhyme forever. I would say that I cannot rhyme because I don't have the rhyming thing in my head. ...
The advantages -- you use the language as a grown-up. You bypass the children's stage and you tend to think more slowly because you have to make sure your thinking is right, so you think slowly and you write slowly. You make sure every word is right, and that helps.
Q: How do you see yourself, Chinese or American?
A: I never want to define myself that way. Who you are is the moment you get up in the morning, you brush your teeth, you wash your face, you look at yourself in the mirror: That person you see is who you are, and I don't see myself early in the morning and say, "Hey, you are American." Or, "You are Chinese." Or, "You are a woman." Or, "You are a mother." I don't think that way, I look at myself and say, "Oh this is you." And that's all I need to define myself.
I compare China now to America in the earliest 20th century. So, if you look at America you know [that in] the late 19th century or early 20th century, the Gilded Age, people were so rich, people were so corrupted. Poor people were very poor, rich people very rich; it was exactly like China. There was not a good legal system. ... People manipulated the legal system. ... If you look at the moral standard at that time it was different from now. So, I think it took America many years to outgrow that age, but China, at this moment, is still in that. ...
Q: How do you look at China and America?
A: I think I enjoy looking at both countries, [from] the outside and also from inside. I know China very well, even if I don't live there. I read the news every day. I can both be an insider and an outsider to both countries.
Q: What do you think of America and China, respectively?
A: Both countries have [a] fatal weakness that they have to deal with. I think the problem with China is there is not a legal system. It's the single-party, the one-party problem. Once you have two parties, the legal system will be fixed. The problem with America is the education; the whole education system in America is so bad. I think the kids are not meeting the standard. I think expectations of the kids are low in general. ... Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.
Interviewed by Nikkei deputy editor Arisa Yoshida
+8.00 积分 [版主 wh. 发放的奖励]
x1
上次由 ccmath 在 2024年 2月 29日 12:59 修改。
#277 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
对，orientalism说的也是西方的优越感。美国原先很多叫oriental的系和学院都改名了。不过英国的老牌学院school of oriental studies (soas)一直没改。ccmath 写了： 2024年 2月 29日 12:15 看到了她说的chinese as an inhibitory language, 联想到我这几年的感觉正好相反。可能是被单位各种左派大字报影响了，英文的书越来越看不下去，平时工作写英文邮件也是越来越短，不像十几年前刚开始工作的时候，经常长篇大论。现在反而是经常看中文的东西，发现了很多语言上的革新。So for me English is becoming an inhibitory language.
和Kyoto Journal上面的访谈连起来看，感觉她写的东西不是单纯的自恨老将文学，而的确是被中文表达所压抑。从李的角度看来，这种压抑，全是CCP的错，但是我觉得可以用一个深层的理论来解释，我称之为language as a power projection. 这里面的power可以是党八股里面的“粉碎”，“彻底清除”，“坚决贯彻”这些暴力语言，也可以是无形的冷暴力，比如被认为是种族歧视的常用语 "go back to china"， 预设了对话双方的不对等的地位。我在这里出生的，就是比外来的人有资格评论。非母语的人和母语的人讲话， 词不达意，也可以理解为power imbalance. 文化批评理论圈子里Edward Said的orientalism, 和Frantz Fanon的white gaze, 可以归结为一种西方居高临下的俯视感。一方是博物馆里的展品，另一方是展览台外面的观众。国内经常提的西方话语支配权，也是这种power的一种表现。
文学归根到底是作者和读者的交流，这种交流的前提，是双方地位得大致对等。所以任何的power projection都只能导致一边是训话的一方，另一半是被教训的一方的结果。
比如版主很欣赏的这句话““Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.” 你从文学的角度，感觉看了很舒服，因为enlighten预设了作为宾语的必然是蒙昧的那一方。而put them where they are这种感觉少一点。其实这句话我在教育界已经听了很多年了，更加政治正确的说法是"meet the students wherever they are, and help then get to where they need to go". 但是作为教育哲学，特别是理科教育，带来的是整个公立教育体制崩塌，导致现在美国制造业回归完全是一句空话。（这个我以后另外开贴）
所以我能理解李所说的，用英文比中文能更好的表达自己。但是我不同意她所说的chinese is changed for forever这种说法。语言本身是不断进化的活的东西，communism does not last forever. 古汉语里面，到处也都是像“自古圣人贤士..." 这一类固化的语言暴力。对于不识字的中国人（过去的绝大多数），读书识字本身就是power imbalance的源头。
我觉得我这个理论可以解释美国这几年的很多现象，包括大家作为父母都比较关心的ABC孩子的心理健康的问题。我个人的直觉是有很大的关系。Amy Tan，Maxine Kingston这些作家的作品，被收入中学生必读书的canon, 对于ABC孩子到底有什么样的影响，欢迎大家进一步深入讨论。
我喜欢的李翊云的那句话倒不是出于文学角度，我同意的是教育无法改变一个人，只能强化人的本性。另外我觉得enlighten没问题，一个没受过教育的人确实处于混沌状态，混沌比蒙昧更中性
你的政治正确说法更政治正确，意思一样 为啥你们都觉得理科教育崩塌？我家小孩基本没上过课外的理科课，我也不知道他们的数理化到底怎样，模糊觉得过得去 我也觉得把中文一棍子打死太偏激和悲观，语言是很多样化、很有生命力的
amy tan和maxine kingston的书现在的中学生也不看了吧？看过kingston的woman warrior，不过也忘了个精光 
#278 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
Maxine Hong Kingston那本短篇集开篇的标题就是 White Tiger. 里面的故事可想而知。
她和Amy Tan的故事都有同样的问题，把亚裔女性的视角放在 Asian patriarchy 和 western feminism之间切换。逻辑思维混乱的中学生看了以后，很容易得出必须抛弃亚洲文化的结论。
谈到逻辑思维，作为从业人员，我从接触的人来估计，美国小学老师不会基本算术，初中老师不会代数，高中老师不会微积分，数学专业毕业的不会写证明。因为懂的人不会去教书。
她和Amy Tan的故事都有同样的问题，把亚裔女性的视角放在 Asian patriarchy 和 western feminism之间切换。逻辑思维混乱的中学生看了以后，很容易得出必须抛弃亚洲文化的结论。
谈到逻辑思维，作为从业人员，我从接触的人来估计，美国小学老师不会基本算术，初中老师不会代数，高中老师不会微积分，数学专业毕业的不会写证明。因为懂的人不会去教书。
wh. 写了： 2024年 2月 29日 12:55 对，orientalism说的也是西方的优越感。美国原先很多叫oriental的系和学院都改名了。不过英国的老牌学院school of oriental studies (soas)一直没改。
我喜欢的李翊云的那句话倒不是出于文学角度，我同意的是教育无法改变一个人，只能强化人的本性。另外我觉得enlighten没问题，一个没受过教育的人确实处于混沌状态，混沌比蒙昧更中性
我也觉得把中文一棍子打死太偏激和悲观，语言是很多样化、很有生命力的
#279 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
逻辑应该是一种生活思维习惯，与文理关系不大ccmath 写了： 2024年 2月 29日 15:03 Maxine Hong Kingston那本短篇集开篇的标题就是 White Tiger. 里面的故事可想而知。
她和Amy Tan的故事都有同样的问题，把亚裔女性的视角放在 Asian patriarchy 和 western feminism之间切换。逻辑思维混乱的中学生看了以后，很容易得出必须抛弃亚洲文化的结论。
谈到逻辑思维，作为从业人员，我从接触的人来估计，美国小学老师不会基本算术，初中老师不会代数，高中老师不会微积分，数学专业毕业的不会写证明。因为懂的人不会去教书。
左蜱加油!
#284 Re: 才知道那个得麦克阿瑟天才奖的李翊云的小娃也没了啊……
你关于语言的论述太学究了。从我半文盲的眼睛看，李对中文的态度不住语言本身，而在于她对中文的深入骨髓的熟悉和敏感。因为熟悉，因为敏感，细微的用词变化可能投射到她的脑子里能带来翻江倒海的情绪变化。对于英文，没那么熟悉，自然就没那么敏感，进而觉得那个语言比较平和。ccmath 写了： 2024年 2月 29日 12:15 看到了她说的chinese as an inhibitory language, 联想到我这几年的感觉正好相反。可能是被单位各种左派大字报影响了，英文的书越来越看不下去，平时工作写英文邮件也是越来越短，不像十几年前刚开始工作的时候，经常长篇大论。现在反而是经常看中文的东西，发现了很多语言上的革新。So for me English is becoming an inhibitory language.
和Kyoto Journal上面的访谈连起来看，感觉她写的东西不是单纯的自恨老将文学，而的确是被中文表达所压抑。从李的角度看来，这种压抑，全是CCP的错，但是我觉得可以用一个深层的理论来解释，我称之为language as a power projection. 这里面的power可以是党八股里面的“粉碎”，“彻底清除”，“坚决贯彻”这些暴力语言，也可以是无形的冷暴力，比如被认为是种族歧视的常用语 "go back to china"， 预设了对话双方的不对等的地位。我在这里出生的，就是比外来的人有资格评论谁能呆在这里。非母语的人和母语的人讲话， 词不达意，也可以理解为power imbalance. 文化批评理论圈子里Edward Said的orientalism, 和Frantz Fanon的white gaze, 可以归结为一种西方居高临下的俯视感。一方是博物馆里的展品，另一方是展览台外面的观众。国内经常提的西方话语支配权，也是这种power的一种表现。
文学归根到底是作者和读者的交流，这种交流的前提，是双方地位得大致对等。所以任何的power projection都只能导致一边是训话的一方，另一半是被教训的一方的结果。
比如版主很欣赏的这句话““Education is not to enlighten the students, it's not to carry them up, it's just to put them where they are.” 你从文学的角度，感觉看了很舒服，因为enlighten预设了作为宾语的必然是蒙昧的那一方。而put them where they are这种感觉少一点。其实这句话我在教育界已经听了很多年了，更加政治正确的说法是"meet the students wherever they are, and help them get to where they need to go". 但是作为教育哲学，特别是理科教育，带来的是整个公立教育体制崩塌，导致现在美国制造业回归完全是一句空话。（这个我以后另外开贴）
所以我能理解李所说的，用英文比中文能更好的表达自己。但是我不同意她所说的chinese is changed for forever这种说法。语言本身是不断进化的活的东西，communism does not last forever. 古汉语里面，到处也都是像“自古圣人贤士..." 这一类固化的语言暴力。对于不识字的中国人（过去的绝大多数），读书识字本身就是power imbalance的源头。
我觉得我这个理论可以解释美国这几年的包括wokeness, 和white backlash在内的很多现象，以及大家作为父母都比较关心的ABC孩子的心理健康的问题。我个人的直觉，无力感powerlessness和抑郁有很大的关系。种田这些体力活为什么可以防止抑郁，不光是阳光，空气这些因素，你把东西种活了，有成就感，giving you a sense of power。像近十几年Amy Tan，Maxine Kingston这些作家的作品，被收入美国中学生必读书的canon, 对于ABC孩子到底有什么样的影响，欢迎大家进一步深入讨论。